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	<title>Comments on: Middle Class Christianity</title>
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	<link>http://brcblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/middle-class-christianity/</link>
	<description>Love...Serve...Grow</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Rich Scheenstra</title>
		<link>http://brcblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/middle-class-christianity/#comment-492</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Scheenstra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brcblog.wordpress.com/?p=354#comment-492</guid>
		<description>Beth, you raise an interesting point. No, Jesus didn't say anything directly about homosexual practice. The only problem with any "argument from silence" is interpreting what the silence means. Some people argue that this means Jesus assumed and accepted the existing prohibition against homosexual practice. If he believed things should change, they say, then he would have certainly said so. Others suggest that Jesus' silence reflects his indifference regarding the issue, i.e. it just wasn't a big deal to him. My own take on this is that Jesus wouldn't have addressed this issue simply because it WASN'T an issue in first century Palestine. There were no (openly) practicing homosexual relationships. A rabbinic saying from the period says that it is okay for men to sleep under the same cloak together because "Israel is not suspected"; that is, homosexual practice was unknown among Jews of the time.

On the other hand, when Jesus addressed the issue of divorce (which WAS a hot button issue at the time), he referred back to Genesis 1:27: "Haven't you read that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one." Some would argue that in this passage Jesus is affirming the male/female nature of marriage. Since homosexuality isn't the issue Jesus is addressing here, this may not be the strongest argument. Going back to the argument from silence, Jesus never addressed the issue of incest, pederasty or bestiality either, but contemporary Jews would have assumed that these were all included when he talked about "sexual immorality," just as they would have assumed that homosexual practice was included. Another interesting passage to consider is Matthew 19:10-12, where Jesus talks about the different reasons people are "eunuchs:" "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." Clearly Jesus isn't restricting his teaching to those who are literally "eunuchs." He does seem to be talking about the different reasons people may find themselves having to live single or celibate lives. None of this provides conclusive evidence one way or the other regarding what Jesus thought about homosexual practice, but it seems to me that the circumstantial evidence may point to his assuming and supporting current Jewish views on the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beth, you raise an interesting point. No, Jesus didn&#8217;t say anything directly about homosexual practice. The only problem with any &#8220;argument from silence&#8221; is interpreting what the silence means. Some people argue that this means Jesus assumed and accepted the existing prohibition against homosexual practice. If he believed things should change, they say, then he would have certainly said so. Others suggest that Jesus&#8217; silence reflects his indifference regarding the issue, i.e. it just wasn&#8217;t a big deal to him. My own take on this is that Jesus wouldn&#8217;t have addressed this issue simply because it WASN&#8217;T an issue in first century Palestine. There were no (openly) practicing homosexual relationships. A rabbinic saying from the period says that it is okay for men to sleep under the same cloak together because &#8220;Israel is not suspected&#8221;; that is, homosexual practice was unknown among Jews of the time.</p>
<p>On the other hand, when Jesus addressed the issue of divorce (which WAS a hot button issue at the time), he referred back to Genesis 1:27: &#8220;Haven&#8217;t you read that at the beginning the Creator &#8216;made them male and female,&#8217; and said, &#8216;For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh&#8217;? So they are no longer two, but one.&#8221; Some would argue that in this passage Jesus is affirming the male/female nature of marriage. Since homosexuality isn&#8217;t the issue Jesus is addressing here, this may not be the strongest argument. Going back to the argument from silence, Jesus never addressed the issue of incest, pederasty or bestiality either, but contemporary Jews would have assumed that these were all included when he talked about &#8220;sexual immorality,&#8221; just as they would have assumed that homosexual practice was included. Another interesting passage to consider is Matthew 19:10-12, where Jesus talks about the different reasons people are &#8220;eunuchs:&#8221; &#8220;For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.&#8221; Clearly Jesus isn&#8217;t restricting his teaching to those who are literally &#8220;eunuchs.&#8221; He does seem to be talking about the different reasons people may find themselves having to live single or celibate lives. None of this provides conclusive evidence one way or the other regarding what Jesus thought about homosexual practice, but it seems to me that the circumstantial evidence may point to his assuming and supporting current Jewish views on the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth Neild</title>
		<link>http://brcblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/middle-class-christianity/#comment-490</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth Neild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brcblog.wordpress.com/?p=354#comment-490</guid>
		<description>I just want to ask, did Jesus ever say anything about this issue? I do not think He did and I believe that says a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to ask, did Jesus ever say anything about this issue? I do not think He did and I believe that says a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Scheenstra</title>
		<link>http://brcblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/middle-class-christianity/#comment-485</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Scheenstra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brcblog.wordpress.com/?p=354#comment-485</guid>
		<description>David, you raise a couple of important issues about how a person comes to experience same-sex attraction. Personally, I believe an objective reading of the research indicates that some combination of "nature and nuture" is usually at work. As far as whether God would create a person "not perfect," actually none of us is born perfect. The Bible says that the "fall" and the "sin disease" has affected all of creation. In other words, everything is "broken," in one way or another, not because God wants it to be, but because we live in a broken world. Sin has penetrated the very fabric of the physical world.

For example, God doesn't want people to be born blind, but some are. God doesn't want children to be born with deformities, but some are. God doesn't want children to be born with autism, but some are. So it shouldn't surprise us that our sexuality would be one area where we may be born "broken."

Just as there are many factors that can influence someone becoming depressed, I think there are many factors that can influence someone becoming gay. I've met many gay men who seem to have been significantly influenced by a dysfunctional relationship with their father. I also know many lesbian women who have been sexually abused. One friend of ours tells us that when she was living a lesbian lifestyle, every lesbian she met [in a major U.S. city] had been sexually abused. I hasten to add that I know lesbians who do not appear to have been abused, and I know of gay men who seem to have had very good relationships with their fathers.

I wouldn't be surprised if a very small number of men and women are hard-wired to be gay or lesbian from birth. On the other hand, it would take a whole lot of blind faith for me to believe this is their "gift" from God. Like with many issues, the simplest solution is often the best solution. We're all born broken. None of us comes into this world perfect, including and maybe especially in the area of our sexuality.

I also believe it's possible to become gay primarily because of environmental factors. I know of one man who didn't experience same-sex attraction until he was sexually abused by an older man. At some point along the way, our personal choices can probably also influence the future direction of our sexual orientation and relating. I also believe that, like in many other areas, spiritual forces (i.e. the demonic) can play a part. Of course, all of these influences play a role in many areas of our lives. As I see it, modern science actually supports the biblical view of sin, which is multi-dimensional and very complex.

While it is important to reflect upon how we've come to be the way we are, the more important question is where we go from here. That's the primary issue Jesus and others in the New Testament are concerned with. Whatever we were born with, whatever nurture we received or failed to receive along the way, how do we inch our way toward the "New Creation," the seeds of which were planted already when we were born again in Christ? Even though we're never completely "cured" of the sin disease and its effects on our hearts, minds and bodies, is it possible to gradually live lives that point in the direction of the New Creation? These, for me, are the most important and most exciting questions for us to be asking, because they affect ALL of our lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, you raise a couple of important issues about how a person comes to experience same-sex attraction. Personally, I believe an objective reading of the research indicates that some combination of &#8220;nature and nuture&#8221; is usually at work. As far as whether God would create a person &#8220;not perfect,&#8221; actually none of us is born perfect. The Bible says that the &#8220;fall&#8221; and the &#8220;sin disease&#8221; has affected all of creation. In other words, everything is &#8220;broken,&#8221; in one way or another, not because God wants it to be, but because we live in a broken world. Sin has penetrated the very fabric of the physical world.</p>
<p>For example, God doesn&#8217;t want people to be born blind, but some are. God doesn&#8217;t want children to be born with deformities, but some are. God doesn&#8217;t want children to be born with autism, but some are. So it shouldn&#8217;t surprise us that our sexuality would be one area where we may be born &#8220;broken.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just as there are many factors that can influence someone becoming depressed, I think there are many factors that can influence someone becoming gay. I&#8217;ve met many gay men who seem to have been significantly influenced by a dysfunctional relationship with their father. I also know many lesbian women who have been sexually abused. One friend of ours tells us that when she was living a lesbian lifestyle, every lesbian she met [in a major U.S. city] had been sexually abused. I hasten to add that I know lesbians who do not appear to have been abused, and I know of gay men who seem to have had very good relationships with their fathers.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if a very small number of men and women are hard-wired to be gay or lesbian from birth. On the other hand, it would take a whole lot of blind faith for me to believe this is their &#8220;gift&#8221; from God. Like with many issues, the simplest solution is often the best solution. We&#8217;re all born broken. None of us comes into this world perfect, including and maybe especially in the area of our sexuality.</p>
<p>I also believe it&#8217;s possible to become gay primarily because of environmental factors. I know of one man who didn&#8217;t experience same-sex attraction until he was sexually abused by an older man. At some point along the way, our personal choices can probably also influence the future direction of our sexual orientation and relating. I also believe that, like in many other areas, spiritual forces (i.e. the demonic) can play a part. Of course, all of these influences play a role in many areas of our lives. As I see it, modern science actually supports the biblical view of sin, which is multi-dimensional and very complex.</p>
<p>While it is important to reflect upon how we&#8217;ve come to be the way we are, the more important question is where we go from here. That&#8217;s the primary issue Jesus and others in the New Testament are concerned with. Whatever we were born with, whatever nurture we received or failed to receive along the way, how do we inch our way toward the &#8220;New Creation,&#8221; the seeds of which were planted already when we were born again in Christ? Even though we&#8217;re never completely &#8220;cured&#8221; of the sin disease and its effects on our hearts, minds and bodies, is it possible to gradually live lives that point in the direction of the New Creation? These, for me, are the most important and most exciting questions for us to be asking, because they affect ALL of our lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Scheenstra</title>
		<link>http://brcblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/middle-class-christianity/#comment-484</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Scheenstra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brcblog.wordpress.com/?p=354#comment-484</guid>
		<description>"Ryjuem", thanks for the reminder about the film at Proctors. I hope to see the film this week. If others see the film, I hope you don't mind my giving you a heads up about a couple of things. First, having seen the trailer for the film, I want to encourage you to remember the distinction between judging and condemning. This film is going to highlight the ways many Christians have "condemned" gays and lesbians. These attitudes deserve to be highlighted. Something is very wrong, to the point of being evil, about how gays and lesbians have often been treated by many Christians. I'm not looking forward to seeing these attitudes and actions exhibited on film, but I think we need to see them. If the film helps the Christian community look in the mirror and take the log out of its own eye, then that's a good thing. It's also important to understand why practicing as well as non-practicing gays and lesbians often feel negatively toward the church. To put it bluntly, we have a lot of repenting to do.

Since the title of the movie is "The Bible Tells Me So," I'm assuming that the movie will be looking at different ways the biblical passages about homosexuality can be read. I don't want to be presumptuous, but I'm guessing that you're going to be given a piece of information that is actually misinformation. People in the film are probably going to say the same-sex behavior that is prohibited in the Bible doesn't apply to people with a homosexual orientation, but rather to heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts. The basis for this argument is the assumption that Paul and all the biblical authors before him didn't know about homosexuality as an orientation.

One of the people interviewed in the film, Rev. Dr. Mel White, heads an organization called "Soulforce." Recently, local RCA pastors were encouraged to download a document from this organization called "What the Bible Says – and Doesn't Say – about Homosexuality." This document states that the reason the Bible is silent on the issue of homosexual orientation is because "homosexual orientation wasn't even known until the 19th century." Often people on the left accuse people on the right of using out-dated science when talking about this issue (which is often true). Unfortunately, people on the left are guilty of using out-dated research about ancient views related to homosexual behavior. N.T Wright, who is a classicist by training, talks about how literature in the first century contains all the nuances about homosexual behavior that are part of our discussions today. For example, Plato's Symposium contains references to men who have experienced same-sex attraction since birth. People floated any number of "medical" theories about how such folks came to be this way, just as we are doing today.

About 30 years ago, I remember reading a book by John Boswell on ancient views about homosexuality. His views continue to influence gay and lesbian Christians today. Bernadette Brooten, a New Testament scholar who identifies herself as lesbian and has written extensively on lesbianism in antiquity, criticizes Boswell: "Boswell...argued that...'The early Christian church does not appear to have opposed homosexual behavior per se.' The sources on female homoeroticism that I present in this book run absolutely counter to [this conclusion]."

Louis Compton, another strong advocate of homosexual unions, has written: "According to [one] interpretation, Paul's words were not directed at 'bona fide' homosexuals in committed relationships. But such a reading, however well-intentioned, seems strained and unhistorical." Robert Gagnon writes: "Many in the ancient world attributed one or more forms of homosexual practice to an interplay of nature and nurture; and, moreover, believed that homoerotic impulses could be very resistant to change." Sounds pretty modern to me. I'm relaying this information because, in my experience, the assumption that ancients didn't know about same-sex orientation is the primary basis for "alternative" interpretations of the biblical passages about homosexual behavior. My interest here is not in stacking the deck, just making sure we're playing with a full deck when talking about what the Bible says or doesn't say about same-sex attraction and behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Ryjuem&#8221;, thanks for the reminder about the film at Proctors. I hope to see the film this week. If others see the film, I hope you don&#8217;t mind my giving you a heads up about a couple of things. First, having seen the trailer for the film, I want to encourage you to remember the distinction between judging and condemning. This film is going to highlight the ways many Christians have &#8220;condemned&#8221; gays and lesbians. These attitudes deserve to be highlighted. Something is very wrong, to the point of being evil, about how gays and lesbians have often been treated by many Christians. I&#8217;m not looking forward to seeing these attitudes and actions exhibited on film, but I think we need to see them. If the film helps the Christian community look in the mirror and take the log out of its own eye, then that&#8217;s a good thing. It&#8217;s also important to understand why practicing as well as non-practicing gays and lesbians often feel negatively toward the church. To put it bluntly, we have a lot of repenting to do.</p>
<p>Since the title of the movie is &#8220;The Bible Tells Me So,&#8221; I&#8217;m assuming that the movie will be looking at different ways the biblical passages about homosexuality can be read. I don&#8217;t want to be presumptuous, but I&#8217;m guessing that you&#8217;re going to be given a piece of information that is actually misinformation. People in the film are probably going to say the same-sex behavior that is prohibited in the Bible doesn&#8217;t apply to people with a homosexual orientation, but rather to heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts. The basis for this argument is the assumption that Paul and all the biblical authors before him didn&#8217;t know about homosexuality as an orientation.</p>
<p>One of the people interviewed in the film, Rev. Dr. Mel White, heads an organization called &#8220;Soulforce.&#8221; Recently, local RCA pastors were encouraged to download a document from this organization called &#8220;What the Bible Says – and Doesn&#8217;t Say – about Homosexuality.&#8221; This document states that the reason the Bible is silent on the issue of homosexual orientation is because &#8220;homosexual orientation wasn&#8217;t even known until the 19th century.&#8221; Often people on the left accuse people on the right of using out-dated science when talking about this issue (which is often true). Unfortunately, people on the left are guilty of using out-dated research about ancient views related to homosexual behavior. N.T Wright, who is a classicist by training, talks about how literature in the first century contains all the nuances about homosexual behavior that are part of our discussions today. For example, Plato&#8217;s Symposium contains references to men who have experienced same-sex attraction since birth. People floated any number of &#8220;medical&#8221; theories about how such folks came to be this way, just as we are doing today.</p>
<p>About 30 years ago, I remember reading a book by John Boswell on ancient views about homosexuality. His views continue to influence gay and lesbian Christians today. Bernadette Brooten, a New Testament scholar who identifies herself as lesbian and has written extensively on lesbianism in antiquity, criticizes Boswell: &#8220;Boswell&#8230;argued that&#8230;&#8217;The early Christian church does not appear to have opposed homosexual behavior per se.&#8217; The sources on female homoeroticism that I present in this book run absolutely counter to [this conclusion].&#8221;</p>
<p>Louis Compton, another strong advocate of homosexual unions, has written: &#8220;According to [one] interpretation, Paul&#8217;s words were not directed at &#8216;bona fide&#8217; homosexuals in committed relationships. But such a reading, however well-intentioned, seems strained and unhistorical.&#8221; Robert Gagnon writes: &#8220;Many in the ancient world attributed one or more forms of homosexual practice to an interplay of nature and nurture; and, moreover, believed that homoerotic impulses could be very resistant to change.&#8221; Sounds pretty modern to me. I&#8217;m relaying this information because, in my experience, the assumption that ancients didn&#8217;t know about same-sex orientation is the primary basis for &#8220;alternative&#8221; interpretations of the biblical passages about homosexual behavior. My interest here is not in stacking the deck, just making sure we&#8217;re playing with a full deck when talking about what the Bible says or doesn&#8217;t say about same-sex attraction and behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: ryjuem</title>
		<link>http://brcblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/middle-class-christianity/#comment-480</link>
		<dc:creator>ryjuem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brcblog.wordpress.com/?p=354#comment-480</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the film "For the Bible Tells Me So" which is playing at Proctors Theater this week on Wed and Thurs might be useful for some people to help in the discussion about the Bible and the issue of homosexuality.  I plan to see it on Wed evening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the film &#8220;For the Bible Tells Me So&#8221; which is playing at Proctors Theater this week on Wed and Thurs might be useful for some people to help in the discussion about the Bible and the issue of homosexuality.  I plan to see it on Wed evening.</p>
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		<title>By: David Santiago</title>
		<link>http://brcblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/middle-class-christianity/#comment-479</link>
		<dc:creator>David Santiago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brcblog.wordpress.com/?p=354#comment-479</guid>
		<description>I've been thinking of yesterday's sermon I heard on the way to work this morning, and today's blog. There are many people who struggle with their sexuality. I ask myself are Men gay because of a longing for love or emptiness they did not receive from a strong male figure in their life as they were growing up? Or are women gay because they feel they cannot be loved by a man because of their childhood, or sexual abuse from a male or bad relationship with a man? I do not think you are born gay that is just ridiculous, that's like questioning Is what God created not perfect. In my own life I know what if feels like when people JUDGE or CONDEMN you when they say you are no good for nothing, or you should not have been born, by people in my own household no less. I'm not looking for anyone's sympathy I just know from pesonal experience what that feels like. Iv'e also seen things as a child nobody should ever have to see. I never felt I should be gay as a result but might have thought about it once or twice and also had friends as young as the fifth grade confused of their sexuality that were going through similar trials in there own life's. I think the society we live in can also play a part in people being confused of there sexuality, with the idea of gay marriages, or gay shows or commercials with even children starring in these types of shows. So what are we showing our young generation. I shut my cable off a year ago because of a gay commercial I saw on nickelodeon. As I said on the last blog I know a lot of people who are gay, and some I'm very close with, and some who shared their story with me and I only hope and pray that what I say and do can be an influence of Jesus to them and be there when they need me... Thank you Pastor for your strength to talk about this issue no matter how small or big it may be or seem to be..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking of yesterday&#8217;s sermon I heard on the way to work this morning, and today&#8217;s blog. There are many people who struggle with their sexuality. I ask myself are Men gay because of a longing for love or emptiness they did not receive from a strong male figure in their life as they were growing up? Or are women gay because they feel they cannot be loved by a man because of their childhood, or sexual abuse from a male or bad relationship with a man? I do not think you are born gay that is just ridiculous, that&#8217;s like questioning Is what God created not perfect. In my own life I know what if feels like when people JUDGE or CONDEMN you when they say you are no good for nothing, or you should not have been born, by people in my own household no less. I&#8217;m not looking for anyone&#8217;s sympathy I just know from pesonal experience what that feels like. Iv&#8217;e also seen things as a child nobody should ever have to see. I never felt I should be gay as a result but might have thought about it once or twice and also had friends as young as the fifth grade confused of their sexuality that were going through similar trials in there own life&#8217;s. I think the society we live in can also play a part in people being confused of there sexuality, with the idea of gay marriages, or gay shows or commercials with even children starring in these types of shows. So what are we showing our young generation. I shut my cable off a year ago because of a gay commercial I saw on nickelodeon. As I said on the last blog I know a lot of people who are gay, and some I&#8217;m very close with, and some who shared their story with me and I only hope and pray that what I say and do can be an influence of Jesus to them and be there when they need me&#8230; Thank you Pastor for your strength to talk about this issue no matter how small or big it may be or seem to be..</p>
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